I made my first big IFR mistake. I fixed my intermittant ADF with only
a few more hours of training to go until my checkride. My glorious plan
to label it INOP (making it an expensive combination multi-channel timer
and partial panel heading memory aid) has been thwarted by a little tuner
cleaner on the card edge connector and the socket on the tray. A small
part of me was hoping that the aluminum swarf that someone rained down
on it while modifying the panel (which I removed a while ago without
fully fixing the problem) had killed it for good.

Anyone have any good NDB approach tips and tricks? :)

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

<<Anyone have any good NDB approach tips and tricks? :)>>

Disable it. You're unlikely to be good at NDB approaches if you only
have a couple of hours practice. Remember, you need to be able to do
them partial panel as well.

Yeah - yank it out of the plane for the checkride.

Michael


"Ben Jackson" > wrote in message
news:LgYZb.380119$na.569603@attbi_s04...
> I made my first big IFR mistake. I fixed my intermittant ADF with only
> a few more hours of training to go until my checkride. My glorious plan
> to label it INOP (making it an expensive combination multi-channel timer
> and partial panel heading memory aid) has been thwarted by a little tuner
> cleaner on the card edge connector and the socket on the tray. A small
> part of me was hoping that the aluminum swarf that someone rained down
> on it while modifying the panel (which I removed a while ago without
> fully fixing the problem) had killed it for good.
>
> Anyone have any good NDB approach tips and tricks? :)
>
> --
> Ben Jackson
> >
> http://www.ben.com/

> Anyone have any good NDB approach tips and tricks? :)

Practice a lot with Flight Simulator on the computer.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Ben Jackson wrote:
> I made my first big IFR mistake. I fixed my intermittant ADF with only
> a few more hours of training to go until my checkride. My glorious plan
> to label it INOP (making it an expensive combination multi-channel timer
> and partial panel heading memory aid) has been thwarted by a little tuner
> cleaner on the card edge connector and the socket on the tray. A small
> part of me was hoping that the aluminum swarf that someone rained down
> on it while modifying the panel (which I removed a while ago without
> fully fixing the problem) had killed it for good.
>
> Anyone have any good NDB approach tips and tricks? :)
>

Yes. Practice, practice, practice! :-)


Matt

"Michael 182" > wrote in message
news:NlYZb.374532$xy6.1935592@attbi_s02...
> Yeah - yank it out of the plane for the checkride.
>
> Michael
>
>
> "Ben Jackson" > wrote in message
> news:LgYZb.380119$na.569603@attbi_s04...
> > I made my first big IFR mistake. I fixed my intermittant ADF with
only
> > a few more hours of training to go until my checkride. My glorious
plan
> > to label it INOP (making it an expensive combination multi-channel
timer
> > and partial panel heading memory aid) has been thwarted by a little
tuner
> > cleaner on the card edge connector and the socket on the tray. A
small
> > part of me was hoping that the aluminum swarf that someone rained down
> > on it while modifying the panel (which I removed a while ago without
> > fully fixing the problem) had killed it for good.
> >
> > Anyone have any good NDB approach tips and tricks? :)
> >
> > --
> > Ben Jackson
> > >
> > http://www.ben.com/


I'd like to back up a bit to the thwarting the intermittant ADF. We bought
a Cherokee 180C a few months back. Was told the ADF was intermittant. I
wasn't too worried, but now I'm getting heavy into IFR training. A couple
lessons seemed to find the ADF tracking fairly well (even shot approaches &
did holds). Now, it seems to "stick" quite a bit when tracking the NDB. It
might find the station fine, but during a turn, the needle doesn't follow
well. I'll flip to ANT (or whatever) to spin the needle, release & it will
get back to the station only to repeat again.

For the life of me, I cannot remember the model (it's not the ADF with the
radio and indicator in the same unit). Not being very mechanically inclined,
I'm curious about what we can do before letting a shop look at it.

Thanks!

This works for me:

1) Reset the heading indicator.
(Unlike ILS and VOR approaches, NDB approaches need the HI to be
correct.)

2) Mentally transpose the ADF needle onto the HI. The HI heading
under the imaginary ADF needle arrowhead is the bearing to the NDB.

3) (As Jose said) practice on MS Flight Sim (or your favorite PC
flight simulator.) Once you've got the no-wind approach nailed,
crank in a 30-knot cross-wind from the side towards which you turn to
do the 45-degee leg of the proceure turn.
The first time I did this, I was blown to the wrong side of the final
approach course before I completed the 180-degree turn part of the
procedure turn. I got completely confused. Glad I wasn't doing this
for real <gr>.
The second time I tried it, the same thing happened, but it was great
to be able to hit the pause button and work out what the instruments
were telling me.
Third time I tried it, I put in enough wind correction during the
procedure turn, and flew the approach adequately.
(FlightSim is great for some things -- It'd take an awful lot of plane
time to learn what those 15 minutes on the PC taught me. However, it
can also encourage bad habits -- I realized this after analyzing why
my landings had deteriorated. I now rarely allow myself to land the
plane on FlightSim.)


As far as actually flying the approach is concerned; when I'm
procedure turn inbound and approaching the NDB (assuming the NDB is
off airport and is the final approach fix), if the imaginary head of
the needle is to the right of the required bearing, I need to turn
right.

Once I'm past the NDB, the tail of the imaginary needle flips towards
the top of the HI. If the tail of the needle is to the right of the
required bearing, I need to turn left.

Hope this helps. I'd also be interested in hearing other people's
tips

Tim.

Ben,
Replace it with an IFR certified GPS. Well then you would have to take
the test using the GPS... :-)
Michelle

Ben Jackson wrote:

>I made my first big IFR mistake. I fixed my intermittant ADF with only
>a few more hours of training to go until my checkride. My glorious plan
>to label it INOP (making it an expensive combination multi-channel timer
>and partial panel heading memory aid) has been thwarted by a little tuner
>cleaner on the card edge connector and the socket on the tray. A small
>part of me was hoping that the aluminum swarf that someone rained down
>on it while modifying the panel (which I removed a while ago without
>fully fixing the problem) had killed it for good.
>
>Anyone have any good NDB approach tips and tricks? :)
>
>
>

--

Michelle P ATP-ASEL, CP-AMEL, and AMT-A&P

"Elisabeth" a Maule M-7-235B (no two are alike)

Volunteer Pilot, Angel Flight Mid-Atlantic

Volunteer Builder, Habitat for Humanity

Just label it INOP and say it isn't reliable. After all, would you fly
an approach in actual on an ADF fixed with some goo and not inspected
by an avionics shop?


\
(Ben Jackson) wrote in message news:<LgYZb.380119$na.569603@attbi_s04>...
> I made my first big IFR mistake. I fixed my intermittant ADF with only
> a few more hours of training to go until my checkride. My glorious plan
> to label it INOP (making it an expensive combination multi-channel timer
> and partial panel heading memory aid) has been thwarted by a little tuner
> cleaner on the card edge connector and the socket on the tray. A small
> part of me was hoping that the aluminum swarf that someone rained down
> on it while modifying the panel (which I removed a while ago without
> fully fixing the problem) had killed it for good.
>
> Anyone have any good NDB approach tips and tricks? :)

I've been told there are examiners who will try an ADF marked
INOP while you're flying, and if it works, you get to fly an approach
with it. You need something a bit more drastic. Does it have a fuse
you can remove? Maybe some tissue paper or seran wrap
over the connector blade? You could remove it altogether but then
a finicky examiner will want to see a revised W&B.

I quite like the challenge of flying NDB approaches without
help from the GPS, but I'd have to be very, very desperate to do
it for real. Without a serious crosswind it isn't TOO hard, as
long as you concentrate on BOTH the heading and the ADF.
I prefer to use only the mag compass. My instructor drummed this
into me during my instrument training. I still remember the
heading for the Stockton NDB because he would chant it all
the way down final. As others have said, it does take a LOT
of practice.

John

"Ben Jackson" > wrote in message
news:LgYZb.380119$na.569603@attbi_s04...
> I made my first big IFR mistake. I fixed my intermittant ADF with only
> a few more hours of training to go until my checkride. My glorious plan
> to label it INOP (making it an expensive combination multi-channel timer
> and partial panel heading memory aid) has been thwarted by a little tuner
> cleaner on the card edge connector and the socket on the tray. A small
> part of me was hoping that the aluminum swarf that someone rained down
> on it while modifying the panel (which I removed a while ago without
> fully fixing the problem) had killed it for good.
>
> Anyone have any good NDB approach tips and tricks? :)
>
> --
> Ben Jackson
> >
> http://www.ben.com/

> Anyone have any good NDB approach tips and tricks? :)

If you don't have MS Flight Simulator or something similar, try Tim's Air
Navigation Simulator:

http://www.vrotate.com/VOR/vor.html

It doesn't simulate the airplane control part, but you can set the positions
of two navaids (VOR or NDB), and the wind, and see how the needles move as you
navigate and track different courses.

Barry

ask your instructor what approaches the examiner will probably have you do.
He should have a good idea about what the examiner will do if he has worked
with him for awhile.


Ben Jackson wrote:

> I made my first big IFR mistake. I fixed my intermittant ADF with only
> a few more hours of training to go until my checkride. My glorious plan
> to label it INOP (making it an expensive combination multi-channel timer
> and partial panel heading memory aid) has been thwarted by a little tuner
> cleaner on the card edge connector and the socket on the tray. A small
> part of me was hoping that the aluminum swarf that someone rained down
> on it while modifying the panel (which I removed a while ago without
> fully fixing the problem) had killed it for good.
>
> Anyone have any good NDB approach tips and tricks? :)
>
> --
> Ben Jackson
> >
> http://www.ben.com/

Wow! I can't believe all the posts recommending ways of disabling the ADF!
Dumbing down the test so that you can pass it is not a good idea and that
philosophy is not going to make anyone good at anything. I like the idea of
using a flightsim to practice.

Mike
MU-2

"Ben Jackson" > wrote in message
news:LgYZb.380119$na.569603@attbi_s04...
> I made my first big IFR mistake. I fixed my intermittant ADF with only
> a few more hours of training to go until my checkride. My glorious plan
> to label it INOP (making it an expensive combination multi-channel timer
> and partial panel heading memory aid) has been thwarted by a little tuner
> cleaner on the card edge connector and the socket on the tray. A small
> part of me was hoping that the aluminum swarf that someone rained down
> on it while modifying the panel (which I removed a while ago without
> fully fixing the problem) had killed it for good.
>
> Anyone have any good NDB approach tips and tricks? :)
>
> --
> Ben Jackson
> >
> http://www.ben.com/

Michael 182 wrote:
> Yeah - yank it out of the plane for the checkride.

Allow me to relate a cautionary tale from my instrument checkride. I actually
planned on doing NDB approaches. I was trained in them and proficient.
Unfortunately, my ADF died the morning of the checkride. No problem, said the
avionics tech, I've got another one of the same model that will just slide in.
OK, the substitute ADF worked fine.

The problem was, the substitute ADF apparently had some very different magnetic
properties from the regular one, which caused the mag compass to be -way- off.

My advice: if you're thinking of "yanking" it, just find a way to disable it in
place instead.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

>
> Michael
>
>
> "Ben Jackson" > wrote in message
> news:LgYZb.380119$na.569603@attbi_s04...
>
>>I made my first big IFR mistake. I fixed my intermittant ADF with only
>>a few more hours of training to go until my checkride. My glorious plan
>>to label it INOP (making it an expensive combination multi-channel timer
>>and partial panel heading memory aid) has been thwarted by a little tuner
>>cleaner on the card edge connector and the socket on the tray. A small
>>part of me was hoping that the aluminum swarf that someone rained down
>>on it while modifying the panel (which I removed a while ago without
>>fully fixing the problem) had killed it for good.
>>
>>Anyone have any good NDB approach tips and tricks? :)
>>
>>--
>>Ben Jackson
>
>>http://www.ben.com/
>
>
>


--
Dave Butler, software engineer 919-392-4367

I understand the reservations of those who find the reliability of
these things to be less than perfect. But it is a tool and it can be
used, just like ded reckoning. Don't ignore it if you have one.

I had to do a partial panel NDB approach on my check ride (nearly ten
years ago). It wasn't pretty, but I passed. I suppose had I been
taking this exam in an earlier technological day and age, I'd be
extolling the virtues of AN radio ranges. However, I wouldn't doubt
that some day, someone will decry partial panel VOR approaches as
something they would never use.

And despite the existence of an approach certified GPS on our
airplane, I still check my fixes against the ADF when the opportunity
presents itself. Never become too reliant on any one piece of
equipment if you can help it.


Jake Brodsky,
PP ASEL IA, Cessna Cardinal N30946, Based @ FME
Amateur Radio Station AB3A

Ok, full disclosure: I'm still an IR student; probably a week or two
from my checkride.

However, I've been flying a lot of NDB approaches with my instructor
and a few things come to mind:

1. when the deflection of the needle is equal to your correction,
you're on course. I believe that this is the only rule you
need to remember!

So, you're flying to the ndb:
- you're heading is equal to your course, and the needle
points up: you're on course
- you're heading is 20 degrees to the right of the course
you want to be on and the needle is 20 degrees to the
left: you're on course.

If you're flying away from the ndb, the rule is the same,
except that the direction of your correction and the deflection
of the needle are in the same direction. This was a little
confusing to me since when you notice you're off course and
turn to correct, the deflection will get worse at first, not
better.

So, you're flying away from the ndb:
- the tail of the needle points 20 degrees to the
right. You turn to correct, say, 30 degrees to
the left. Now the needle say 50 degrees off. Wait.
When it goes back to 30 (the amount of your correction)
you're back on the course. (you'll probably want to
reduce your correction now, as it will continue to
slide you over to the other side if you keep it in)

2. if you get confused, turn your heading to the desired course
and see where the needle is

3. think of an ndb approach as a dead reckoning approach, and
just think of the adf as a way of getting some insight into
the wind direction.

Heck, if the ndb is off the airport but only a few miles away,
just fly to the ndb (try not to "home", but don't sweat it
if you do a bit) Then, just fly an outbound heading from the
ndb that you think will get you the right courseline (or if
you're really overloaded, just fly the same heading as the
course you want), and wait for the clock to time out!

Unless you are seriously unlucky, you'll be somewhere near
the airport and the DE will have no idea that you didn't
know what you were doing. ;)

4. As others have said, make sure your DG is correct before you
start the approach.


Dave

--


"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message et>...
> Wow! I can't believe all the posts recommending ways of disabling the ADF!
> Dumbing down the test so that you can pass it is not a good idea and that
> philosophy is not going to make anyone good at anything. I like the idea of
> using a flightsim to practice.
>
> Mike
> MU-2
>
> "Ben Jackson" > wrote in message
> news:LgYZb.380119$na.569603@attbi_s04...
> > I made my first big IFR mistake. I fixed my intermittant ADF with only
> > a few more hours of training to go until my checkride. My glorious plan
> > to label it INOP (making it an expensive combination multi-channel timer
> > and partial panel heading memory aid) has been thwarted by a little tuner
> > cleaner on the card edge connector and the socket on the tray. A small
> > part of me was hoping that the aluminum swarf that someone rained down
> > on it while modifying the panel (which I removed a while ago without
> > fully fixing the problem) had killed it for good.
> >
> > Anyone have any good NDB approach tips and tricks? :)
> >
> > --
> > Ben Jackson
> > >
> > http://www.ben.com/

In article et>,
Mike Rapoport > wrote:
>Wow! I can't believe all the posts recommending ways of disabling the ADF!
>Dumbing down the test so that you can pass it is not a good idea and that
>philosophy is not going to make anyone good at anything. I like the idea of
>using a flightsim to practice.

Oh, I'm not going to disable it. I have practiced NDB approaches before
in the simulator. After fixing the ADF right before picking up my
instructor I managed to fly a passable NDB approach.

I was actually sort of concerned that so many VOR/ILS approaches require
DME around here that if my DME (probably the most advanced bit of nav
equipment in the plane!) failed my options would be really limited if I
didn't have a working ADF.

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote
> Wow! I can't believe all the posts recommending ways of disabling the ADF!

Why not? Once you buy into the idea that an instrument rating isn't
actually very useful in the sort of airplane he will be flying, and is
just a piece of paper to get, it makes all the sense in the world.
Disabling the ADF makes the piece of paper easier to get.

> Dumbing down the test so that you can pass it is not a good idea and that
> philosophy is not going to make anyone good at anything.

Except passing tests.

> I like the idea of using a flightsim to practice.

I do too, especially since you can (a) stop the action to think while
you're coming up to speed and (b) get a track showing what you did
immediately afterwards.

I also think that NDB approaches are the second-best exercise in
situational awareness available - NDB holds are the first. Once
situational awareness is mastered, it actually takes very little time
to learn NDB approaches. Thus my advice is this - focus on knowing
where on the approach plate you are, every minute. Know where the
wind is coming from. It's perfectly legitimate to draw a wind arrow
on the approach plate once you figure out the wind, and it can make
visualizing your correction easier. Remember, the procedure turn is
not cast in stone. You can go more than a minute outbound before
turning 180, and if there's a stiff headwind from that direction you
probably should. How many degrees you should lead your turn onto the
FAC becomes obvious when you keep wind and distance from the beacon in
mind. Keep in mind that heading, bearing (absolute and relative),
course, and track are all different things. Know the differences.

Once you get to that point, you won't need the rules, the mnemonics,
the tricks, or any of the rest of that garbage. The corrections will
become intuitive.

Thus I have a suggestion about the best way to use flight sim. If you
are not sure what the needle is telling you or how to correct, DON'T
GUESS. Stop the action and figure it out, then start again. You will
find that with time, you will not need to stop anymore. At that
point, start doing them in the plane. I think you will discover that
a couple of hours is all it will take to become proficient.

Michael

Wow - I finally read something worth reading on this newsgroup. Thanks
Michael. (And for once I am not being facetious!)

I don't have an adf in my plane - I wish I did. I have just two VOR
receivers. An ADF would get me into a bunch of other places and it is nice
to have the extra functionality. (especially like LOMs)

"Grumman 123, LOM inbound"
"huh?"

"Michael" > wrote in message
om...
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote
> > Wow! I can't believe all the posts recommending ways of disabling the
ADF!
>
> Why not? Once you buy into the idea that an instrument rating isn't
> actually very useful in the sort of airplane he will be flying, and is
> just a piece of paper to get, it makes all the sense in the world.
> Disabling the ADF makes the piece of paper easier to get.
>
> > Dumbing down the test so that you can pass it is not a good idea and
that
> > philosophy is not going to make anyone good at anything.
>
> Except passing tests.
>
> > I like the idea of using a flightsim to practice.
>
> I do too, especially since you can (a) stop the action to think while
> you're coming up to speed and (b) get a track showing what you did
> immediately afterwards.
>
> I also think that NDB approaches are the second-best exercise in
> situational awareness available - NDB holds are the first. Once
> situational awareness is mastered, it actually takes very little time
> to learn NDB approaches. Thus my advice is this - focus on knowing
> where on the approach plate you are, every minute. Know where the
> wind is coming from. It's perfectly legitimate to draw a wind arrow
> on the approach plate once you figure out the wind, and it can make
> visualizing your correction easier. Remember, the procedure turn is
> not cast in stone. You can go more than a minute outbound before
> turning 180, and if there's a stiff headwind from that direction you
> probably should. How many degrees you should lead your turn onto the
> FAC becomes obvious when you keep wind and distance from the beacon in
> mind. Keep in mind that heading, bearing (absolute and relative),
> course, and track are all different things. Know the differences.
>
> Once you get to that point, you won't need the rules, the mnemonics,
> the tricks, or any of the rest of that garbage. The corrections will
> become intuitive.
>
> Thus I have a suggestion about the best way to use flight sim. If you
> are not sure what the needle is telling you or how to correct, DON'T
> GUESS. Stop the action and figure it out, then start again. You will
> find that with time, you will not need to stop anymore. At that
> point, start doing them in the plane. I think you will discover that
> a couple of hours is all it will take to become proficient.
>
> Michael

I recognize that you didn't suggest disabling the ADF, after all you are the
one who fixed it. I am a little surprised at the attitude expressed by
others though. If flying an NDB approach is beyond ones capibility, then
flying real IMC is pretty risky business and might end badly. Good luck on
the checkride.

Mike
MU-2

"Ben Jackson" > wrote in message
news:Gut_b.45054$Xp.200275@attbi_s54...
> In article et>,
> Mike Rapoport > wrote:
> >Wow! I can't believe all the posts recommending ways of disabling the
ADF!
> >Dumbing down the test so that you can pass it is not a good idea and that
> >philosophy is not going to make anyone good at anything. I like the idea
of
> >using a flightsim to practice.
>
> Oh, I'm not going to disable it. I have practiced NDB approaches before
> in the simulator. After fixing the ADF right before picking up my
> instructor I managed to fly a passable NDB approach.
>
> I was actually sort of concerned that so many VOR/ILS approaches require
> DME around here that if my DME (probably the most advanced bit of nav
> equipment in the plane!) failed my options would be really limited if I
> didn't have a working ADF.
>
> --
> Ben Jackson
> >
> http://www.ben.com/

"Michael" > wrote in message
om...
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote
> > Wow! I can't believe all the posts recommending ways of disabling the
ADF!
>
> Why not? Once you buy into the idea that an instrument rating isn't
> actually very useful in the sort of airplane he will be flying, and is
> just a piece of paper to get, it makes all the sense in the world.
> Disabling the ADF makes the piece of paper easier to get.
>

Depending on where he lives and flys, it could be very useful. I learned to
fly in SoCal where there is a lot of benign IMC. I agree that there are
also some places where IMC can never be flown safely without a lot of
equipment.


> > Dumbing down the test so that you can pass it is not a good idea and
that
> > philosophy is not going to make anyone good at anything.
>
> Except passing tests.
>
> > I like the idea of using a flightsim to practice.
>
> I do too, especially since you can (a) stop the action to think while
> you're coming up to speed and (b) get a track showing what you did
> immediately afterwards.
>
> I also think that NDB approaches are the second-best exercise in
> situational awareness available - NDB holds are the first. Once
> situational awareness is mastered, it actually takes very little time
> to learn NDB approaches. Thus my advice is this - focus on knowing
> where on the approach plate you are, every minute. Know where the
> wind is coming from. It's perfectly legitimate to draw a wind arrow
> on the approach plate once you figure out the wind, and it can make
> visualizing your correction easier. Remember, the procedure turn is
> not cast in stone. You can go more than a minute outbound before
> turning 180, and if there's a stiff headwind from that direction you
> probably should. How many degrees you should lead your turn onto the
> FAC becomes obvious when you keep wind and distance from the beacon in
> mind. Keep in mind that heading, bearing (absolute and relative),
> course, and track are all different things. Know the differences.
>
> Once you get to that point, you won't need the rules, the mnemonics,
> the tricks, or any of the rest of that garbage. The corrections will
> become intuitive.
>
> Thus I have a suggestion about the best way to use flight sim. If you
> are not sure what the needle is telling you or how to correct, DON'T
> GUESS. Stop the action and figure it out, then start again. You will
> find that with time, you will not need to stop anymore. At that
> point, start doing them in the plane. I think you will discover that
> a couple of hours is all it will take to become proficient.
>
> Michael

I agree.

Mike
MU-2

My instrument ticket has been very useful to me. Even in my little arrow.

In fact, it looks like I may be using it for my trip from vegas to phoenix this
weekend with the weather we have been having.

Michael wrote:

> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote
> > Wow! I can't believe all the posts recommending ways of disabling the ADF!
>
> Why not? Once you buy into the idea that an instrument rating isn't
> actually very useful in the sort of airplane he will be flying, and is
> just a piece of paper to get, it makes all the sense in the world.
> Disabling the ADF makes the piece of paper easier to get.
>
> > Dumbing down the test so that you can pass it is not a good idea and that
> > philosophy is not going to make anyone good at anything.
>
> Except passing tests.
>
> > I like the idea of using a flightsim to practice.
>
> I do too, especially since you can (a) stop the action to think while
> you're coming up to speed and (b) get a track showing what you did
> immediately afterwards.
>
> I also think that NDB approaches are the second-best exercise in
> situational awareness available - NDB holds are the first. Once
> situational awareness is mastered, it actually takes very little time
> to learn NDB approaches. Thus my advice is this - focus on knowing
> where on the approach plate you are, every minute. Know where the
> wind is coming from. It's perfectly legitimate to draw a wind arrow
> on the approach plate once you figure out the wind, and it can make
> visualizing your correction easier. Remember, the procedure turn is
> not cast in stone. You can go more than a minute outbound before
> turning 180, and if there's a stiff headwind from that direction you
> probably should. How many degrees you should lead your turn onto the
> FAC becomes obvious when you keep wind and distance from the beacon in
> mind. Keep in mind that heading, bearing (absolute and relative),
> course, and track are all different things. Know the differences.
>
> Once you get to that point, you won't need the rules, the mnemonics,
> the tricks, or any of the rest of that garbage. The corrections will
> become intuitive.
>
> Thus I have a suggestion about the best way to use flight sim. If you
> are not sure what the needle is telling you or how to correct, DON'T
> GUESS. Stop the action and figure it out, then start again. You will
> find that with time, you will not need to stop anymore. At that
> point, start doing them in the plane. I think you will discover that
> a couple of hours is all it will take to become proficient.
>
> Michael

Richard
some parts of the country do not have many NDB's, The two around me that I
know of are both are in different states. Utah and california, so I really get
no use out of my ADF. I do have the garmin 430 and I kept the ADF and DME for
backup but as I said, I never get the opportunity to use it. An approach
certified GPS will do you alot more good then the ADF.

Richard Hertz wrote:

> Wow - I finally read something worth reading on this newsgroup. Thanks
> Michael. (And for once I am not being facetious!)
>
> I don't have an adf in my plane - I wish I did. I have just two VOR
> receivers. An ADF would get me into a bunch of other places and it is nice
> to have the extra functionality. (especially like LOMs)
>
> "Grumman 123, LOM inbound"
> "huh?"
>
> "Michael" > wrote in message
> om...
> > "Mike Rapoport" > wrote
> > > Wow! I can't believe all the posts recommending ways of disabling the
> ADF!
> >
> > Why not? Once you buy into the idea that an instrument rating isn't
> > actually very useful in the sort of airplane he will be flying, and is
> > just a piece of paper to get, it makes all the sense in the world.
> > Disabling the ADF makes the piece of paper easier to get.
> >
> > > Dumbing down the test so that you can pass it is not a good idea and
> that
> > > philosophy is not going to make anyone good at anything.
> >
> > Except passing tests.
> >
> > > I like the idea of using a flightsim to practice.
> >
> > I do too, especially since you can (a) stop the action to think while
> > you're coming up to speed and (b) get a track showing what you did
> > immediately afterwards.
> >
> > I also think that NDB approaches are the second-best exercise in
> > situational awareness available - NDB holds are the first. Once
> > situational awareness is mastered, it actually takes very little time
> > to learn NDB approaches. Thus my advice is this - focus on knowing
> > where on the approach plate you are, every minute. Know where the
> > wind is coming from. It's perfectly legitimate to draw a wind arrow
> > on the approach plate once you figure out the wind, and it can make
> > visualizing your correction easier. Remember, the procedure turn is
> > not cast in stone. You can go more than a minute outbound before
> > turning 180, and if there's a stiff headwind from that direction you
> > probably should. How many degrees you should lead your turn onto the
> > FAC becomes obvious when you keep wind and distance from the beacon in
> > mind. Keep in mind that heading, bearing (absolute and relative),
> > course, and track are all different things. Know the differences.
> >
> > Once you get to that point, you won't need the rules, the mnemonics,
> > the tricks, or any of the rest of that garbage. The corrections will
> > become intuitive.
> >
> > Thus I have a suggestion about the best way to use flight sim. If you
> > are not sure what the needle is telling you or how to correct, DON'T
> > GUESS. Stop the action and figure it out, then start again. You will
> > find that with time, you will not need to stop anymore. At that
> > point, start doing them in the plane. I think you will discover that
> > a couple of hours is all it will take to become proficient.
> >
> > Michael

"Mike Rapoport" > writes:

>Wow! I can't believe all the posts recommending ways of disabling the ADF!

While restoring our plane, my partner (working on his CFI) and I
(working on my Private) discussed ways of making check rides
easier. When I was working on my Instrument, we talked about
ways to get rid of the ADF so I wouldn't be required to do the
dreaded NDB approach.

Turned out that I came to enjoy NDB approaches (after getting
some advice on how to fly them from my Purdue ground school
instructor) and really looked forward to doing one for the check
ride. That didn't work though. The plane I was able to use did
not have a functioning ADF. I was bummed.

No, I'll probably never have to fly one for real, but I still
like NDB approaches - partially because there's so much room for
error built into them.

--kyler

Jeff > wrote
> My instrument ticket has been very useful to me. Even in my little arrow.

It seems like my attempt at subtle humor (at the expense of some
posters) fell flat for lack of understanding. Yes, at times an
instrument rating can be useful, even in a light single. I've
actually made a couple of business trips IFR that couldn't legally be
done VFR in a TriPacer - and that's about as little as it gets; way
smaller and less capable than an Arrow. It may not be the rule, but
it can happen.

My point is that those of us who actually use our instrument ratings
for flying weather that can't be flown VFR on a regular basis have a
fundamentally different outlook on getting the ticket than those who
rarely use the rating in anger. We understand that passing the
checkride is just a relatively trivial adjunct to learning the
necessary skills for surviving in the weather, and it would simply
never occur to us that someone who needs to disable an instrument to
pass the checkride has any business flying weather in the first place.

Therefore, I made the implicit assumption that anyone recommending
that course of action must have already bought into the idea that an
instrument rating wasn't something you use to fly in weather.

But it's just not funny if you have to explain it.

Michael

You totally misunderstood my point. I thought the person I was responding
to was commenting on the laziness of people and the general push towards
just getting by rather than learning how to fly.

I did not say anything about how ADF is better than GPS or something
similar. A GPS probably could get me to more places legally, but do I
really want to do a GPS approach rather than a precision approach at a
bigger airport? I don't think so. The ADF in my plane would allow me to
get to a few places that have NBS for missed approaches, and the like - I
know I can substitute a GPS, but I learned how to fly without needing the
pretty pictures to tell me where I am.


"Jeff" > wrote in message
...
> Richard
> some parts of the country do not have many NDB's, The two around me that
I
> know of are both are in different states. Utah and california, so I really
get
> no use out of my ADF. I do have the garmin 430 and I kept the ADF and DME
for
> backup but as I said, I never get the opportunity to use it. An approach
> certified GPS will do you alot more good then the ADF.
>
> Richard Hertz wrote:
>
> > Wow - I finally read something worth reading on this newsgroup. Thanks
> > Michael. (And for once I am not being facetious!)
> >
> > I don't have an adf in my plane - I wish I did. I have just two VOR
> > receivers. An ADF would get me into a bunch of other places and it is
nice
> > to have the extra functionality. (especially like LOMs)
> >
> > "Grumman 123, LOM inbound"
> > "huh?"
> >
> > "Michael" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > "Mike Rapoport" > wrote
> > > > Wow! I can't believe all the posts recommending ways of disabling
the
> > ADF!
> > >
> > > Why not? Once you buy into the idea that an instrument rating isn't
> > > actually very useful in the sort of airplane he will be flying, and is
> > > just a piece of paper to get, it makes all the sense in the world.
> > > Disabling the ADF makes the piece of paper easier to get.
> > >
> > > > Dumbing down the test so that you can pass it is not a good idea and
> > that
> > > > philosophy is not going to make anyone good at anything.
> > >
> > > Except passing tests.
> > >
> > > > I like the idea of using a flightsim to practice.
> > >
> > > I do too, especially since you can (a) stop the action to think while
> > > you're coming up to speed and (b) get a track showing what you did
> > > immediately afterwards.
> > >
> > > I also think that NDB approaches are the second-best exercise in
> > > situational awareness available - NDB holds are the first. Once
> > > situational awareness is mastered, it actually takes very little time
> > > to learn NDB approaches. Thus my advice is this - focus on knowing
> > > where on the approach plate you are, every minute. Know where the
> > > wind is coming from. It's perfectly legitimate to draw a wind arrow
> > > on the approach plate once you figure out the wind, and it can make
> > > visualizing your correction easier. Remember, the procedure turn is
> > > not cast in stone. You can go more than a minute outbound before
> > > turning 180, and if there's a stiff headwind from that direction you
> > > probably should. How many degrees you should lead your turn onto the
> > > FAC becomes obvious when you keep wind and distance from the beacon in
> > > mind. Keep in mind that heading, bearing (absolute and relative),
> > > course, and track are all different things. Know the differences.
> > >
> > > Once you get to that point, you won't need the rules, the mnemonics,
> > > the tricks, or any of the rest of that garbage. The corrections will
> > > become intuitive.
> > >
> > > Thus I have a suggestion about the best way to use flight sim. If you
> > > are not sure what the needle is telling you or how to correct, DON'T
> > > GUESS. Stop the action and figure it out, then start again. You will

> > > find that with time, you will not need to stop anymore. At that
> > > point, start doing them in the plane. I think you will discover that
> > > a couple of hours is all it will take to become proficient.
> > >
> > > Michael
>

"Richard Hertz" > wrote in message >...
> You totally misunderstood my point. I thought the person I was responding
> to was commenting on the laziness of people and the general push towards
> just getting by rather than learning how to fly.

> I did not say anything about how ADF is better than GPS or something
> similar. A GPS probably could get me to more places legally, but do I
> really want to do a GPS approach rather than a precision approach at a
> bigger airport?

You make it clear this is a rhetorical question, but I'd like to
point out that quite often in some parts of the country, the answer
is "yes", for many reasons.

For example, if you have a choice between flying a GPS approach into
an airport 20 minutes drive from your destination, or an ILS into a
bigger airport 2 hrs drive away, what do you really want to do?

If you have a choice between being based at a smaller airport where
you can afford hangar rent and typically be the only one shooting
the GPS approach, or a nearby bigger airport where you can be #7
for the ILS, what do you really want to do?

Similar considerations apply to other NP vs precision approaches -- except
that these days NDBs at smaller airports are often woefully ill-maintained
and not NOTAM'd OTS as often as they really are.

Of course, if you can afford any hangar rent at any airport and you
only fly into major metropolitan areas bristling with precision approaches,
these considerations don't apply to you

Cheers,
Sydney

I was told to pull the breaker and label it "INOP". :) But I need to learn
how to use what is in my plane so I'll learn the proper way to use the ADF.


Trip


In article >, says...
>
>Ben Jackson wrote:
>> I made my first big IFR mistake. I fixed my intermittant ADF with only
>> a few more hours of training to go until my checkride. My glorious plan
>> to label it INOP (making it an expensive combination multi-channel timer
>> and partial panel heading memory aid) has been thwarted by a little tuner
>> cleaner on the card edge connector and the socket on the tray. A small
>> part of me was hoping that the aluminum swarf that someone rained down
>> on it while modifying the panel (which I removed a while ago without
>> fully fixing the problem) had killed it for good.
>>
>> Anyone have any good NDB approach tips and tricks? :)
>>
>
>Yes. Practice, practice, practice! :-)
>
>
>Matt
>

(Dave Jacobowitz) wrote in
om:

>
> So, you're flying away from the ndb:
> - the tail of the needle points 20 degrees to the
> right. You turn to correct, say, 30 degrees to
> the left. Now the needle say 50 degrees off. Wait.
> When it goes back to 30 (the amount of your correction)
> you're back on the course. (you'll probably want to
> reduce your correction now, as it will continue to
> slide you over to the other side if you keep it in)
>
>
In your situation above, I just look at the *head* of the needle. It will
point to the left. It is the same whether you are flying to or away from
the NDB. Turn in the same direction (left, 30deg as you suggest). Initial
error will increase, but needle will back in as you re-intercept the
course. When course deviation is equal to course correction you are on
target.

Sriram